The Morning Upgrade Podcast Featuring Paul Kiesche
Welcome to episode #110 of the Morning Upgrade Podcast. In this week’s episode I spoke with Paul Kiesche, owner of Aviate Creative, an illustrator, and a professor.
How Pokiescheck Explains Paylines and Their Role in New Zealand Pokies
Paylines are one of the most fundamental mechanics in pokie machines, yet they remain poorly understood by a significant portion of players. In New Zealand, where pokies are a deeply embedded part of both pub culture and online gambling, understanding how paylines function can meaningfully affect how players approach a session, manage their bankroll, and interpret their results. Resources like Pokiescheck have worked to bridge this knowledge gap by providing structured, detailed explanations of payline mechanics tailored specifically to the New Zealand market. Rather than offering generic descriptions that could apply to any gambling jurisdiction, the platform contextualises payline information within the regulatory and cultural framework that New Zealand players actually encounter — covering everything from fixed versus adjustable paylines to the way modern video pokies have moved beyond traditional line structures entirely.
What Paylines Actually Are and How They Developed Over Time
A payline is a predetermined path across the reels of a pokie machine along which matching symbols must land for a player to receive a payout. In the earliest mechanical slot machines, which emerged in the late nineteenth century with Charles Fey’s Liberty Bell design, there was only a single payline — a straight horizontal line across the centre of three reels. Winning or losing was binary: either the symbols aligned on that one line or they did not. This simplicity made the machines easy to understand but also limited the variety of outcomes and the potential for more complex game design.
The expansion of paylines began in earnest during the electromechanical era of the 1960s and 1970s, when manufacturers started introducing machines with three and then five paylines. These additional lines — running diagonally or across the top and bottom rows — gave players more ways to win on a single spin without increasing the number of reels. By the 1990s, with the transition to fully digital video pokies, the number of paylines began climbing dramatically. Five-reel video pokies with nine, fifteen, or twenty-five paylines became standard. Some titles pushed further, offering fifty or even one hundred paylines, though at that point the distinction between a payline and a simple “ways to win” structure started to blur.
New Zealand’s gaming landscape underwent significant regulatory changes during this period. The Gambling Act 2003 restructured how gaming machines could be operated, establishing the Department of Internal Affairs as the primary regulatory body for non-casino gaming machines and the Gambling Commission for broader oversight. This legislation had downstream effects on machine design and the types of pokies available in New Zealand pubs and clubs, which are required to use approved machines that meet specific technical standards. Online pokies, which are accessed through offshore-licensed platforms by New Zealand players, operate under a different framework — the Gambling Act does not license offshore operators, but it also does not criminalise New Zealand residents for accessing them. This has created a dual environment where players may encounter quite different machine types depending on whether they are playing at a local venue or through an online platform.
Understanding this historical and regulatory context is important because payline structures differ substantially between the older-style machines found in many New Zealand pubs — which tend to have simpler, fixed payline configurations — and the more complex video pokies available through online platforms. Pokiescheck addresses both categories, explaining how the payline mechanics differ and what that means practically for players in each setting.
Fixed Versus Adjustable Paylines and the Ways-to-Win Alternative
One of the most practically relevant distinctions in payline design is between fixed paylines and adjustable paylines. On a fixed payline machine, all paylines are always active regardless of the player’s bet size. The player cannot choose to deactivate certain lines to reduce their stake — instead, the minimum bet automatically covers all lines, and the player can only adjust the coin value or the number of coins per line. Fixed payline machines are common in land-based New Zealand venues, partly because they simplify the player experience and partly because regulatory requirements for approved gaming machines tend to favour straightforward configurations.
Adjustable payline machines, more commonly found in online pokies, allow players to select how many paylines they want to activate on each spin. A machine with twenty-five paylines might allow a player to activate as few as one or as many as all twenty-five. While this appears to give the player greater control, it introduces a complication that many players misunderstand: deactivating paylines does not improve the return-to-player percentage. The RTP is calculated assuming all paylines are active. When a player deactivates lines, they are not improving their odds — they are simply reducing the number of ways they can win while also reducing their cost per spin. A winning combination that lands on a deactivated payline results in no payout, which can be frustrating and counterintuitive for players who assume that a visible symbol match should always pay.
Pokiescheck explains this distinction in practical terms, noting that many experienced players prefer fixed payline machines precisely because there is no ambiguity about whether a particular payline is active. For players who want to reduce their per-spin cost on an adjustable machine, the platform recommends activating all lines and instead reducing the coin value, which preserves the full complement of winning opportunities while still lowering the total bet amount.
The ways-to-win model, sometimes called “243 ways” or “1024 ways” depending on the reel configuration, represents a departure from traditional payline thinking altogether. In this system, there are no defined payline paths. Instead, a win is awarded whenever matching symbols appear on consecutive reels from left to right, regardless of their vertical position. A five-reel machine with four symbol positions per reel using this system has 4×4×4×4×4 = 1,024 possible winning combinations, hence the “1024 ways” label. This model eliminates the possibility of a visible match failing to pay because the relevant payline was inactive — if the symbols appear on consecutive reels, the win is registered. Players who find traditional payline mechanics confusing often adapt more quickly to the ways-to-win model, though it typically requires a higher minimum bet since there is no option to reduce the number of active paths.
Those who want to read more about how these different payline structures affect variance and expected value will find that the topic connects directly to questions about volatility — high-payline or high-ways machines tend to produce more frequent but smaller wins, while low-payline machines with larger individual payouts tend toward higher variance. Understanding this relationship helps players choose machines that match their risk tolerance and session goals.
How Paylines Interact with RTP, Volatility, and Bonus Features
The relationship between paylines and return-to-player percentage is more nuanced than it might initially appear. RTP is a statistical measure expressed as a percentage — for example, 96% — that describes the proportion of total wagered money that a machine returns to players over an extended period of play. It is not a prediction of what any individual player will receive in a single session. New Zealand’s land-based gaming machines are required to meet minimum RTP thresholds set by the Department of Internal Affairs, with approved machines typically operating at RTPs between 78% and 92% — notably lower than the 94%–97% range common among online video pokies. This discrepancy is one reason why informed players who understand payline mechanics often approach land-based and online pokies with different expectations.
Payline count affects RTP indirectly through its interaction with the paytable. A machine with more paylines can distribute its symbol combinations across more winning paths, which allows designers to lower the individual symbol payouts while maintaining the overall RTP. Conversely, a machine with fewer paylines must concentrate its payouts on a smaller number of outcomes, which often means larger individual wins but less frequent payouts — the hallmark of higher volatility. This is why two machines with identical RTPs can feel dramatically different to play: one might pay out small amounts regularly across many active paylines, while another might go through long dry spells punctuated by substantial wins on its few active lines.
Bonus features — free spins, multipliers, expanding wilds, and bonus rounds — interact with paylines in ways that further complicate the picture. Many modern online pokies award their most significant payouts not through standard payline wins but through bonus features that may operate under different rules entirely. During a free spins round, some machines temporarily expand the number of active paylines or switch to a ways-to-win model. Others apply a multiplier to all payline wins, effectively changing the value of each line without changing the line structure itself. Pokiescheck’s explanations of specific game titles typically include notes on how bonus features modify the standard payline mechanics, since this information is rarely made explicit in the game’s own help section.
Scatter symbols, which pay regardless of payline position, represent another layer of complexity. A scatter win is calculated based on the total bet rather than the per-line bet, which means that on a machine where the player has reduced their active paylines, the scatter payout may be calculated differently than they expect. This is a common source of confusion that payline education resources like Pokiescheck specifically address, because players who do not understand scatter mechanics may significantly underestimate or overestimate the value of a scatter win relative to their actual wager.
The introduction of cluster pay mechanics in titles like NetEnt’s Aloha! Cluster Pays, released in 2016, and the subsequent popularity of the format in games by developers including Play’n GO and Pragmatic Play, represents yet another evolution away from traditional paylines. Cluster pays machines award wins when a specified number of identical symbols appear adjacent to one another — horizontally or vertically — rather than along any defined line. This system is particularly common in games with grid layouts rather than the standard reel format, and it requires players to abandon their payline intuitions entirely. Understanding that there is no “line” to track, only clusters of adjacent symbols, is a conceptual shift that payline education resources have had to incorporate as the format has grown in popularity among New Zealand online players.
Practical Implications for New Zealand Players Choosing Pokies
For players in New Zealand who want to make informed choices rather than simply selecting a machine based on its visual theme, payline structure is one of the most useful filters available. A player with a fixed session budget who wants to maximise their time at the machine will generally benefit from choosing a high-payline or ways-to-win machine with a lower coin value per line, since this configuration produces more frequent wins that extend the session even if the individual win amounts are modest. A player who is comfortable with longer dry spells in exchange for the possibility of larger payouts might prefer a low-payline, high-volatility machine where the fewer winning combinations carry greater individual weight.
The distinction between land-based and online options is particularly relevant in New Zealand given the regulatory gap between the two environments. Gaming machines in pubs and clubs — there were approximately 15,000 approved non-casino gaming machines in New Zealand as of recent Department of Internal Affairs figures — are subject to strict technical standards that limit both the complexity of payline structures and the maximum bet per spin, which is capped at two dollars. Online pokies accessed through international platforms face no such restrictions, which is why they can offer far more complex payline configurations, higher betting limits, and bonus features that would not be permissible in a land-based New Zealand venue.
Pokiescheck’s approach to explaining these differences is notable for its specificity. Rather than offering abstract descriptions of payline types, the platform applies payline analysis to actual titles that New Zealand players commonly encounter, explaining how the payline structure of a specific game interacts with its paytable, RTP, and bonus features to produce a particular playing experience. This granular approach is more useful than generic payline definitions because it gives players actionable information about the specific machines they are likely to encounter.
Players who take the time to understand payline mechanics also become better equipped to read the information that is already available to them within the games themselves. Most online pokies include a paytable or help section that lists the active paylines, the symbol values, and the rules governing scatter and bonus wins. Players who understand payline concepts can extract meaningful information from these sections — identifying, for example, whether a machine uses fixed or adjustable lines, what the minimum and maximum payline bets are, and how the bonus feature modifies the standard win structure. This ability to interpret paytable information independently is arguably the most durable benefit of payline education, since it applies across any pokie title a player might encounter rather than being specific to a single game or platform.
Paylines are not merely a technical detail of pokie design — they are the structural framework through which every outcome is determined, and understanding them is foundational to any informed approach to pokie play. The evolution from single-line mechanical machines to complex multi-way digital pokies reflects decades of game design development, and New Zealand players encounter this full spectrum depending on whether they are playing at a local venue or through an online platform. Resources that explain these mechanics with precision and contextual relevance, grounded in the specific regulatory and market conditions of New Zealand, provide genuine value to players who want to move beyond guesswork and engage with pokies on the basis of actual understanding. The payline — simple in concept, complex in application — remains the central mechanism around which all of this knowledge is organised.
Top Talking Points
- How to find a niche audience in order to grow your business.
- Using meditation as a stop gap between work and sleep.
- Improving your happiness by taking life less seriously.
Resources & Links
Connect With Paul on LinkedIn or at AviateCreative.com.
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Episode Transcript
Announcer
Welcome to the Morning Upgrade podcast with Ryan Cote, where we feature casual conversations with entrepreneurs about personal development and growth.
Ryan
Hey, Paul, welcome to the Morning Upgrade podcast. How’s it going?
Paul
Hey, Ryan, what’s going on?
Ryan
Oh, not much. Yeah. So we’ve known each other for a bunch of years now, when we first get connected through Ballantine, through some of the marketing associations that we belong to.
Paul
Absolutely, I’ve seen you and known you for so many years at networking associations, and it’s been fun.
Ryan
I’m excited to have you on my podcast. So why don’t you introduce yourself and who you are, what you do for a living, and then give us a win that’s happening in your life right now, something you’re grateful for?
Paul
Well, first off, I’m thrilled to be here. I think this is awesome what you’re doing, and such a great message. I’m the owner and creative director of Aviate Creative. We’re a creative agency mostly specializing in manufacturing and technology. And then we do anything from branding, websites, print materials, copywriting, that kind of stuff. In addition to that, I also am a published illustrator, published fine artist, and professor. So I keep my days for the win. Right now, we’ve been seeing a lot of success, and my business has been kind of growing pretty quickly. And what’s even more exciting for me at this time than the growth is that I think we’re finally at a point where my employees, my newer employees, are really kind of showing more independence, and I’m able to delegate more work off. So that’s kind of a thrilling thing for me just to be able to rely on more people than myself.
Ryan
I didn’t realize you were a professor and an illustrator. What do you illustrate?
Paul
So I’ve been illustrating since 1997 or something. So I illustrate everything from, I mean, I don’t do it that often. But it’s part of my collection of services, let’s say. But I’ve illustrated everything from book covers and magazine spot illustrations to parts on websites, to animations to the full that really the full gamut. Right now, my most known style, like I actually used to teach illustration, so I work in lots of styles, but my most popular style is probably my oil painting. And that’s what I do my fine art painting, and I have those showing in some galleries and stuff as well.
Ryan
You mentioned your business growth and what’s contributing to that. Is there a singular thing, or is it a combination?
Paul
It’s a long story, but that let’s let’s sum it up with I put I worked with a marketing coach for a little while, and we reworked my business to be much more niche marketing driven. So I used to be a generalist company. So I’ve had my company for 17 years. And for a long time, it went up and down in size. And I kept being told that I needed to niche down into markets. And eventually, I finally listened. And when I did it, it took a while. I had to work at it for a good year or so to really get it to where it needed to be. But now it’s just taken off. So we’ve built a really great reputation in manufacturing and technology. And so instead of us trying to convince customers to use us, now people are finding us and saying, you don’t even have to sell me, Paul, like we, we trust you, we know you, you have a great reputation, we want to work with you. So it’s been a like a total flip-the-script situation where now people are seeking us out instead of us seeking them out. So it’s really exciting.
Ryan
It’s how we got reconnected recently because we are in the digital marketing space, and we worked with a lot of manufacturing industry companies. And we were, you know, 2022, we started running away from website, website design projects that they were coming at us with an x. And so I was like, well, I need to be able to refer them refer clients to someone that we trust. And I just came across your website I’m like, oh, Paul’s doing manufacturing now. And so anyway, like to your message that niching down yes, I mean, we, for us for the manufacturing, it’s not our only niche, but it’s a big core niche and so like the whole sales process when you’re you’re showing the logos of who you work with and case studies and it just like it gets easier and easier the more clients you have it becomes like that snowball effect, so it’s true.
Paul
Absolutely, and to work with a partner that not only gets it but you guys complement our services that’s a really big win on both sides. That’s great.
Ryan
Yeah, so for those listening, if you’re considering niching down, you obviously have to think about what niche you’re gonna pick, and you know, there’s there that’s a whole process, but you’ll see that like, like Paul said, when it might be a little slow to start when if you get a few clients that niche and you have some social proof, it does get it definitely does get easier.
Paul
Yeah, we get a lot of homework, and it where we would, we did a lot of interviewing in that area. We read a lot of articles, for we did a lot of just education and trying to understand things and Got involved in all sorts of associations. So it wasn’t like this like an instant thing, but it was well worth it. And, as you said, it kind of snowballs. So it’s been that snowball is getting bigger and gaining momentum. And that’s really exciting.
Ryan
Good. I’m glad we’ve mentioned this already. Now, what’s the title of this podcast is going to be niching down with Paul. So let’s turn to personal development. What are your mornings like? Do you have a routine?
Paul
As much as this podcast is called the morning upgrade. My mornings – I’m a terrible morning person. I am much more of a night owl. I always have been so, but my morning routines definitely are pretty loaded. I like to be a hands-on Dad. So a lot of it’s getting my kids out and ready for either school or camp now that summer, I want to stay relatively physically fit. So pretty much every day, I’m doing a routine of stretching, trying to work out a run a couple of times a week if I’m not too busy with everything else in life. And I quit coffee a while back, so I still need the caffeine. So I’m a big matcha drinker. Now I don’t know if you’re not sure at all. But that’s been part of my morning routine these days.
Ryan
I actually stopped drinking coffee about two months ago to I still have caffeine in the morning. I replaced it not with matcha that I’ve heard of that. I replaced it with a supplement called Earlybird. Caffeine from coffee bean extract, it has electrolytes, and it has amino acids, and some herbs for like brain health and brain and focus. I love it. Like like it’s much more than coffee. It’s like when I drink that during my morning routine is like game on, you know, ready to go. You know, it’s like, it’s like a switch has been flipped? You know?
Paul
Yeah, absolutely.
Ryan
You said you’re a night owl? Well, do you have a nighttime routine? Or more just working on stuff? Or do you have a routine?
Paul
No nighttime routine, but one main thing. I work a lot. And it’s not, when you own your own business or multiple businesses, you know, it becomes a passion in a lot of ways, but also an obsession probably in some ways. So I work a lot, then I always make sure that I have a separation of work to sleep in the sense that I’ll try to relax with my wife and watch a show or just relax for a while. But one thing that I’ve picked up, I’ve been doing for over a year now, I think, is meditating at night. So I probably spend 15 to 20 minutes doing some meditation at night. And that’s been really awesome and helpful and just great for like personal growth and personal. I had a lot of issues with anxiety through, like, as a lot of people did through the middle to end of COVID It was, you know, loaded with other reasons and stuff. But the meditation helped a lot with that. But now it’s branched off into much more than just anxiety and much more into other areas of personal growth. So that’s been exciting.
Ryan
I’m with you in terms of meditation. And, you know, I like you I try to move every day, I do move every day, some form of exercise, but I also meditate every day because I look at it as like the workout for your mind as you saw it. It seems like you said it calmed your anxiety. And so you said, that’s the main reason I started.
Paul
Yeah, absolutely.
Ryan
I wonder how long did it take for you to feel those effects?
Paul
Well, it wasn’t a combination of things. But it needs to be like refreshing in a way, but I do very much for that purpose. Currently, I use headspace for meditation on my phone. I never used to, but now I do. And they have a really great course and series of meditations that lead you through and educate you on anxiety. So that’s like a 30-day course. And that’s, that’s been really helpful. And I’ve done it actually a few times because it kind of like just walks you through ways to like rethink things and re-organize the way you kind of approach. subject matters other than anxiety driving and stuff like that. So it’s been interesting.
Ryan
Headspace is good for calming. It’s good. The app I use, Insight Timer, they’re all rock stars in the meditation space. All good choices. Question for you. In terms of the topic of happiness, is there anything you are intentional about, in just happiness, but just like living a fulfilling life, a life that just fills your cups? Maybe it’s whatever happiness or fulfillment? Is there anything you do intentionally, every day, or every week that feeds that?
Paul
Absolutely. You know, I think that some, from the outside perspective, you see some people, and you’re like, oh, man, they’re just naturally happy, or they’re just naturally like, you know, Oh, they’re so lucky or whatever. And I now think, over the years, I’ve learned that very often, It’s not by accident or by chance. That’s by design. And so, you know, and I respect that more now in my life than I ever have before, is that some people will say, you know, they just came from an optimistic viewpoint; I had a lot of philosophy of thinking it from a worst-case perspective in terms of like, what’s the worst that can happen? And then, you know, oh, that’s not so bad. So let’s go for it. I think, well, I realized that that actually was contributing to my anxiety and a negative viewpoint in life. And therefore, I’ve kind of changed a lot of that. So now I have a much different perspective on the future, on optimism and stuff like that. So, in general, I would say, like, one I choose to be, to have fun and be silly, in the sense that I think a lot of people are self-conscious and worried about what other people are gonna think. And I’m just like, I don’t care, I want to be silly with my kids, I want to be silly with my employees, like, I’ve always found that the more fun and more silly you have, the more confident you actually come across. And the more you just enjoy life, and the more you smile, and the more you smile, the more people smile around with you, you know, so I think that’s a choice in general. And then, you know, just being grateful for what you have and grateful for life and the earth, and, you know, family and everything else in there, just I think, I try to think of steward smiley or whatever standing in the mirror, saying, like, his daily routine, or whatever. But in general, like, I think it’s important to remind yourself of what is good in life and what you should be grateful for. So, yes, yeah.
Ryan
I’m glad you mentioned the apartment being silly because I do tend to gravitate toward that. And I sometimes feel like I’m Michael from the office. So I tend to like wanna make dumb jokes or have, like, the number one boss mug that no one got me, I got myself, you know, and like, I find myself maybe holding back sometimes I am biased more towards goofy and are trying to like to make jokes, but not as much as I would like to be, I find myself holding back, you’re saying that you found it better, for you, at least is to be more authentic. And just to let that silly side fly. And you said you’ve seen positive things from it?
Paul
Absolutely. A couple of notes to that would be like, I’ve had a bigger, deeper appreciation for dad jokes. Now, only recently, because a lot of people are like moan and groan when they hear that joke. And I’m like, do you understand what’s actually happening? That dad or whoever says the dad joke, doesn’t have to be a dad. They’re trying to make you smile, you know, they’re trying to cheer up the room, and they’re trying to lighten the feeling, you know, and I’m like, that’s beautiful. You know? Like, why? Why moan and groan about that? So it’s a cheesy joke, but there, that’s somebody trying to make a more positive impact on their moment, you know? So I, I definitely think that there’s a lot of good there. You know, I learned a long time ago, you know, I remember being in a, in an Irish Pub when I was in college, and some song came on, and I just, I just had fun with it and dance, whatever. And it changed my whole perspective. Because all of a sudden, I was like, Oh, my God, like, people are actually, like, responding in such a positive way to me just having fun and being in the moment. And, like, that has changed my whole perspective on it. It was like, that was so much stronger than being self-conscious and worrying about what other people were thinking about my dancing. Now they were, like, enjoying it. And even though I wasn’t a good dancer at the time, I was still just having fun. And they just want to have fun with you. And so it just, like, changed a lot of my perspective on that.
Ryan
That’s true. Yeah, just being yourself and just not worrying about whether people think about you, you know, with the dad jokes made me think, or being silly, even when you’re making me laugh, that’s thinking about it maybe a few months ago, and I was bringing a couple of months ago, I was bringing my one daughter to softball, and she had to softball practice. And she had to leave early because she had to go somewhere else, right? And she’s like, well, how will I know when it’s time to leave? And I was like, well, I’ll be on the side. And if you see me doing jazz hands, that means we have to leave it. She’s like, please don’t.
Paul
Embarrass the heck out of our kids. Right? And like, you know, so it’s funny. So, the other day, my kids, I have two daughters. And they’re the same age, we have twins, and they were embarrassed by something I did. And they’re, they’re eight years old. So they’re just showing that embarrassment. And I was like, and somebody said something, and they were like, feeling bad for me. And I was like, No, this is what I want. I was like, I’ve been trying to embarrass them for years. And finally, they’re getting embarrassed. I’m like, this is perfect. Now I get to have fun with it. Now, that’s great.
Ryan
I tell my daughters that you just don’t realize how cool I am yet. You know, it’s good. You know, eventually, you’re gonna realize that maybe, you know.
Paul
Good luck. Good luck.
Ryan
I didn’t say when that was gonna happen. It could be 20 years from now. But, Paul, I got one last question for you. What is my last question? It’d be Here’s a great question. I want to talk to you about challenges. We’ll end with that. And then and then we’ll, the rear end will be you tell everyone how they can learn more value. But my last question for you is about challenges in business. How do you handle them personally? Do you tackle them head-on? Do you have like a specific way you handle challenges? Because we’re always dealing with them? So how do you personally handle them?
Paul
Depends on the challenge. So one thing I learned a couple of years ago, which I like, is if you can get it done in five minutes or less, just literally do it immediately. Don’t add it to your to-do list, and don’t do anything else; just do it and get it done and out the door. Right. But if it’s more significant, which, you know, a real challenge is going to be more significant than that. It depends on what it is. But I think a big part of it is truly understanding the root of the concern or issue or challenge in the sense that, like, for me, a lot of challenges come in terms of my clients, they’re trying to create some kind of website or brochure or whatever. And a lot of designers, a lot of artists will just design something that looks prettier or quickly functional or something. But one thing I’ve learned and matured into, I think, is understanding the perspective of the end user, the end buyer. So like, what are what is that person? What do they actually care about? What are their pain points, what are their concerns, and like getting to the root of that solve everything? We talked about manufacturers earlier. And if a manufacturer is selling a sprocket, they don’t care if the sprocket is like point to diameter and this kind of metal, they might care about that eventually, what they really care about is, is it going to work on, you know, when it needs to? Is it going to be reliable? Is it going to be delivered on time and so forth? So if you get to the root of what that buyer actually cares about, that’s when everything else falls into place? Because then that tells you like how to achieve that challenge and how to fix that and so forth. So I don’t know if I answered your question as directly, but that’s what I would say.
Ryan
Not at all. No, you did. No, I think what you’re saying is expectations, and communication, especially in our businesses. That’s, like, super crucial salary. Absolutely. Very good advice. Well, Paul, this was great and a lot of fun. If people want to connect with you, where should we send them?
Paul
My agency website is www.aviatecreative.com. And then from there, as you know, we’re on every social platform. So if you look for Aviate Creative on social platforms, that’s a great way to get in contact with me. For my fine art. It’s Paulkieschefineart.com You can just do a quick search, and I’ll probably come up with any way that works.
Ryan
Perfect. Thanks, Paul. Great job.
Paul
Awesome. Thank you. I appreciate the time.
Announcer
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